Guruji: “I just finished reading “Kali’s Odiyya” yesterday. Most of it was good but some things were beyond comprehension. It appears to have a mix of fantasy as well, for example, when he cuts Sandhya’s body into pieces. I mean, people who are able to contact such super beings, and can go outside their body at will, have the shafe-shifting ability and can turn into a dog, why would they bother about trivial matters? And there’s the physical relationship of cousins – Sandhya and Shambhu, and their aunt Prema encouraging them, and despite having such powers she simply died of malaria! On one hand you are talking about supernatural powers and on the other hand you die such a trivial death. And eating her corpse as the last rites! That is quite strange.”
Q: “Is it only fantasy then?”
Guruji: “It appears to have a blend of reality as well, especially the rituals about Kali’s worship and the description of ‘Odiyyas’ which are very similar to nature spirits. In this book, apparently his personal fantasies have gotten mixed as well, especially that part about his sexual relationship with his cousin. Even though you sometimes get to hear such cases, but they have gone too far in it. But it has been never heard of that the mother herself is encouraging them on and keeping it secret from the entire household! If you have left all inhibitions and not accepting social norms, why are you living in society at all? The point is, if we are not accepting the social structure, and have broken all social taboos, then after breaking all social taboos you should be away from society. You are breaking all the social rules and yet completely thriving on society, this is a hypocritical thing.
“Couple of things he has said in the book are really good. For example what he said about non-violence, it was a very good statement. Until there’s love in the heart, violence will never end. That is exactly the fact. Book is amusing though. It mostly talks about the black magic rituals in the villages of South India, which they have tried to connect to cosmic consciousness, etc.
“Another interesting thing is the reference to the book named Aghora Rahasya. I have heard about it from some South Indians. The author is some Nambudiri brahmin. The community of Nambudiri brahmins is known as masters of black magic in South India. In villages there, no one would dare bother any Nambudiri living in their village, because they know if he’s pissed, he could wreak havoc on their homes and the entire village. Adi Shankaracharya was also a Nambudiri brahmin. These people have a deep knowledge of tantra, through tradition only.
“I have discussed about aghoris with many people, and Aghora Rahasya is not about real aghoris, but it has a lot of information about going to smashan (cremation grounds) and catching ghosts, or to do black-magic rituals. The simplest method in that book is to find the skull of a freshly cremated corpse, one which is half-burned, and on the new moon night cook rice and lentils in it and eat! If you did this, the ghost or the spirit of that body will come in your control, and will start telling you things and get your work done. This is the first initiation – cooking and eating rice and dals in the skull of a corpse, flavored with its brain (laughs). There are many such methods described in that book, to contact ghosts and earthly spirits.
“And the other aghora tradition, of Dattatreya and Gorakhnath, that is of course a very high form of aghora. They have nothing to do with ghosts. Their objective is to live in smashan and gain contact with Shiva, who is known to live in smashan.”
Q: “Guruji, what do you think about about Vimalananda’s (Robert Svoboda’s) Aghora books?”
Guruji: “They are very much near to the facts. Although there are some incidents that Vimalananda suggestively narrated, which Robert Svoboda has credited to Vimalananda himself, but those are stories of Aghori Kinaram. But otherwise that book is very good. It definitely adds to the general knowledge. These discussions are common among aghoris or yogis. It could have been me talking! About Dattatreya, Shiva-ji, Kundalini, yantras – these are some of the fundamental subjects. Vimalananda is real. I have read all the 3 parts. What he has said about Dattatreya, about Krishna, Shiva-ji, aghoris, Girnar, about Dhuni, etc, these things are possible and they do happen.”
Q: “It is mentioned in those books that Vimalananda had met Lord Dattatreya and Guru Gorakhnath.”
Guruji; “Some of it is exaggeration as well, for example, about Babaji. Gorakhnath was mentioned in the context of what he called avishkara – inviting a deity to enter somebody’s body. There’s no mention of a direct meeting.
“You’ll find a lot of people like Vimalananda in Maharashtra. “Navnath Charitra” (stories of the nine Naths) can be found in every home. Saint Gyaneshwara himself was a Nath yogi. I think it’s a fairly common knowledge there about Guru Dattatreya – he is called Datta Guru there – and about immortal Naths. In Gwalior, we used to think that Dattatreya was only a god of Maharashtrian folks, since only they used to go to Dattatreya’s temple. People in central area are not very familiar with Nath tradition. But that book is very factual. Of course, there’s always some elaboration, some dramatization. But even then, it is 95% fact.”
Q: “Guruji, the aghora mentioned in that book, is that practiced for power or for self-realization?”
Guruji: “See, the system of Vimalananda was tantric system, which has ritualistic practices for a direct experience of the Goddess and to gain powers from Her, practices like Shava (corpse) Sadhana. It is fairly commonly known in central India that people do these things (Shava Sadhana), even though in reality it is very rare to find people who actually know such practices and have actually done them. Yet, there are people who do these practices and surely gain contact with a super spirit.
“What he has mentioned that the goddess first came in the form a white jackal, that is also a fact. White jackal has come here (academy campus) as well! Our watchman saw it – there were flames coming out of its mouth. It happened in 2000 winter, and after that, there was a complete change in scenario over here! It was in 1999 december of 2000 January. People call it ‘Siawoli’, and fire emanates from its mouth. It is considered a form of the goddess. In addition, the devotees of the goddess who are practicing the tantric system offer meat to the jackal as an offering to the goddess. If the jackal cries out after eating the sacrificial meat then it is considered that the goddess is appeased. In Bengal, women-folks produce ‘hulu’ sounds on certain occasions – weddings for example. That is also an imitation of jackal. It’s exactly the same sound, you should check that out. Since the goddess worshiping is an integral part of Bengali culture, they know this connection. And ‘shiva’, the name of the goddess, is an exact Sanskrit word for she-jackal. There are some really amazing tantras in India.
“This kind of knowledge is spread all over the place. Some of it is documented in texts, some are transmitted through traditions.”
Q: “It’s hard to distinguish what is true and what is bogus.”
Guruji: “Yes, only with experience you can tell what is possible and what is not. It’s a research work.
“There was a pundit in Mathura who had gained control over a yakshini (a powerful ethereal being). There are lots of ways described in tantras to gain control over different kinds of yakshinis.
“He could do miracles with the help of that Yakshini, like being able to tell anything about anybody, causing hail-storms, raining of stones, etc. But when he was about to die, he realized the terrible consequences he was going to suffer. So he called his sons and told them this ‘I’m sending her to a far-off place. Before she returns, tie my body to a heavy stone and drown me in Yamuna river, otherwise she’ll take me with her’. See that’s the point. If you enslave an astral being for material gains, you won’t be able to get away from it after death. They are powerful in that domain! You force them to be a slave against their will. If she had served him out of her own will, it would have been perfectly fine.
“So he sent her away and before she could come back, he drowned himself in the river. What happened afterward is just unimaginable! It rained blood in their house, his dead body when recovered was found filled with human feces in the mouth! It was unmentionable what all happened to them. That’s why the wise men have said ‘Beware! All such businesses have a terrible end.’ You get some publish adulation but ultimately suffer the consequences yourself.
Q: “Guruji, what do these ethereal being generally do?”
Guruji: ‘Well, these ethereal beings have a totally different sense of time from us. What a lifetime is for us could be just a day or two for them. And they have very long lifespans – thousands and even millions of years long. They live very long!
Q: “If people know about these terrible consequences, why do they do these things – force ghosts, yakshinis, etc, to do their bidding?”
Guruji: “For greed, for fame, public adulation, for earning money, doing business, impressing people, what else! Feeling of power is very intoxicating. Everybody wants credit for doing favors, everybody wants people to sit at their feet and worship them as gods. All these things lead people on these paths.”
Q: “Guruji, are there any tantric practices in our yoga tradition as well?”
Guruji: “No, we don’t have a system to force anybody against their will. They can contact us on their own, and they do. That is a better option, if there’s friendship on an equal footing. Remember, friendship lasts only among equals. When you are able to raise your standards to their level, they’ll automatically contact you. Before that, it’ll be forced.
“Even this name you must have heard, X. He went mad in the end! He also developed rectum cancer. He was trying to gain control over a yakshini. That ritual failed and he went mad and died as if he was suffering in hell! He had a really terrible death.
“Think of it this way – you are blackmailing a very powerful person to do your bidding. The day you loose your hold, he’ll destroy you. And when you deal on equal terms and you yourself have become powerful, there might be a friendship. That has always been the difference and will always remain so. And self-progress can only happen through Yoga; there’s no other way. Self power can only increase through yoga. And the purpose of Yoga is always perfectly clear! Instead of catching some other spirit to gain knowledge about the spiritual world, why not control your own spirit and gain that knowledge – didn’t it also come from the spiritual domain? And you don’t blackmail yourself.
Q: “This is a very fascination subject. How can I develop a general understanding of the subject?”
Guruji: “You’ll pick things up along the way. Buy a set of books – “Mantra Mahodadhi”. You’ll gain a lot of knowledge about mantras and tantras. It’s not of any practical use though. There are a lot of tantric rituals and mantras described in that book, only for the fulfillment of material desires. And I’ve found that many mantras given in that book are incorrect. But it’ll help with the general knowledge of the subject.
Q: “Guruji, did you specifically study this subject to understand all this or did you gain the knowledge automatically?”
Guruji: “You can say I understood it automatically (laughs). See, I’ve never studies mantras but when I hear one, I can tell if there’s a mistake in it and what that mistake is. It comes from inside whether this is wrong or right. Somebody gifted me Mantra Mahodadhi few years back. When I looked at the rituals prescribed in the book, I was surprised. Based on that, miracles should have been an everyday occurrence, since there’s no dearth of people in India engaged in such tantric rituals. But when my attention went to the mantras, I realized that most of them were either incomplete or had incorrect pronunciation. There are many technical mistakes in the book, which either have been deliberately introduced or have somehow gotten in there. That’s why they don’t give any results.
“I’ve never studies any mantras. But with yoga practice, you acquire the ability to analyze everything, even including the ritualistic worship of any god. And ultimately these rituals are kamya karma, for fulfillment of material desires. No more than that. I have observed that if a person practices yoga – sincerely, consistently, regularly, their desires get fulfilled automatically. That is more preferable. The best thing is if Nature Itself starts taking care of you. And after reaching a certain state, whatever the man utters becomes a mantra!”
“That’s why you’ve never seen me reading a mantra, in puja or otherwise. We play Damaru, which is more than enough. Memorizing the mantra and then showing-off in front of people by repeating them doesn’t make any sense to me. Simplicity is the biggest deal. And the simplicity of a person develops only when all his desires are near the state of fulfillment. He won’t care for anything! Why does a man crave money or power? To fulfill some desires. If your desires are already fulfilled, then why would you go after them? If the Nature starts favoring you then you won’t have to worry about anything.”
[20090802-2] Recorded: July 10, 2003
