vedas – Conversations with Guruji

The Detestable Vedic Times

Q: “Guruji, why did Shiva-ji instruct Agastya rishi to go to South India?”

Guruji: “It’s strange story. Once upon a time the Vindhyachal mountain became jealous of the Himalaya and started rising to become the highest mountain. Eventually it started creating problems, so Shiva-ji asked Agastya rishi to go to the south, as the mountain would have to stay low to give him passage, and instructed the rishi to tell the mountain to not rise until he returned. The rishi went to south India and never returned, and the mountain stayed low till this day (laughs). It could be symbolic as well – the rishi might have controlled the mountain with his powers .

“It’s only due to Agastya rishi’s impact that the south Indian culture is so rich. Shiva-ji’s worship is very common, and compared to the north, the common man is more educated as well as peaceful and well-behaved.”

Q: “So, Guruji, should we identify ourselves with Aryans or Dravidians?”

Guruji: “It’s all mixed up now. We are definitely not Aryans, because Aryans used to butcher cows and eat their meat. Vedas are full of these references.”

Q: “I thought killing a cow was always considered the biggest sin!”

Guruji: “Only in recent times, after Lord Krishna’s advent. It wasn’t like this before. I read a story in vedas long time back in which Vashistha rishi went to someone’s place and in his welcome feast, young healthy calves were slaughtered and their delicate meat was served. There was a king named Raktidev. In his kingdom, 10,000 cows used to be slaughtered everyday in honor of rishis and brahmins. An entire river formed out of washing the hides of those slaughtered cow – the Chambal river. The original name of Chambal river is Charmanavati – formed out of charma (hide).

“Krishna was the first person to revolutionize vedic culture, which also seems like was his primary objective. He deposed Indra – the main deity of vedas – and stopped worship of Brahma. Krishna’s work was revolutionary! Before Him, all avatars came only to help Indra, as Vishnu is Indra’s younger brother – Upendra. Krishna stopped Vishnu’s worship and started a new tradition of caring for cows. That’s why he was called Gopal [go = cow, pal = to raise]. He started the worship of Goverdhan mountain and gave the discipline of cow-herding, which became the most virtuous of all work. No one else did all this before.

“Also, what we call the degradation of Hindu culture is basically uprooting of the vedic culture. Brahmins had become very powerful and corrupt. If a lower-caste person were to hear vedic verses by mistake, they would fill molten lead in his ears. There was no limits to cruelty at that time, however Hindus feel about it today. They have no idea what kind of changes Krishna has brought.

“The old vedic gods got so out of control, they even stood up against Shiva! After Daksha yagya, when they opposed Shiva just to get a part of sacrificial offerings and Mother Sati had to die, they have been continuously getting punished. That’s why no vedic god is worshiped today – neither Vishnu, nor Brahma, Pusha, Varuna, or anybody else. New gods have emerged – Rama, Krishna, Hanuman, Radha-Krishna. Even a child makes fun of Indra. This means they were not as noble as have been portrayed in vedas.

“Also, if you read carefully, it’d feel like these vedic rituals were more like hardcore tantric rituals. For example, king Harishchandra couldn’t have a child. So he appeased Varuna, who said you’ll beget a son but you’ll have to give it to me at a particular age. When the time came, Harishchandra didn’t give his son to Varuna, so he fell seriously ill. To appease Varuna again, he did a yagya which required human sacrifice. Vishwamitra rishi presided over the yagya ceremony. It’s a touching story and also very famous. For the human sacrifice, Vishwamitra suggested the king to buy somebody. One poor Brahmin had 3 sons. The eldest one Brahmin refused to part with as the eldest son was going to continue his lineage. The mother refused to part with the youngest son as he was very dear to her heart. The middle son they sold to the king for money. In the story he was saved in the end – when he was tied to the sacrificial pole, he became enlightened since he had overcome the attachment of mother and father, and started uttering verses of vedas. Vishwamitra refused to kill the boy, claiming that he had now reached the state of a rishi.

“But the main point is, there used to be such rituals when human sacrifices were offered. You must have heard about Ashwamedha yagya; in that, the horse used to be sacrificed at the end. Just like people today donate cows believing that after death they would cross the Vaitarni holding the cow’s tail, at that time kings used to sacrifice horses believing that after they die, they’d find a horse standing there, all saddled and ready, to take them to heaven!

“Today no one would like to do such rituals. Also, yoga wasn’t very well known. There used to be a sect called vraatya, who used to do fasts, etc. Among them there used to be a few yogis. But they were always segregated since they didn’t accept vedic rituals.”

Q: “Guruji, weren’t rishis yogis?”

Guruji: “They were expert in rituals and had tantric powers. Not all rishis were yogis – some were. Rishis have just been vying to control the gods. The only stories you hear about them are how they got tempted by this nymph and that nymph. You wouldn’t find such stories about yogis. That’s probably people say that we are children of rishis and munis – they were always about impregnating some queen or seducing some princess (laughs). And they were so powerful that everybody had to abide.

“There’s a story in Chandogya Upanishad: There was a king named Janushruti. One day, the king was standing on the roof of his palace when some swans flew past, making sounds like ‘raikva, raikva’. In sanskrit it means whatever is there is with Raikya.

“So the king searched for a Raikya and he found one Raikya sitting naked near a bullock-cart, scratching his back. When the king asked for knowledge, Raikya threw him out saying that a low-caste king didn’t deserve such knowledge. The king had a daughter, about 15-16 years old, and very beautiful. The king went to Raikya again and offered his daughter to him. Raikya said, ‘O king, even though you are not worthy, your daughter’s beautiful face is compelling me to give you the knowledge’. And then he gave him knowledge that everything is air! But the moral of the story is that Raikya rishi got aroused by the princess and to get her, he gave the king a little bit of information.

“Vedas as filled with such stories. We should be glad that we are born in a time free of the shackles of vedas, thanks to Lord Krishna. The government has now banned cow-slaughter MP – the first thing Uma Bharti did as part of her new administration. In Chattisgarh as well. This is a good improvement.

“We can conclude that Lord Krishna brought about the end of vedic times. Even in Gita he has denounced vedas three times. Nobody wants to go heaven now. Everybody’s preaching now-a-days that there’s nothing in heaven, we should seek the lotus feet of this god (laughs), or seek liberation, or self-realization.”

[20110108-2] Recorded: Dec 24, 2003

Decoding Mythology, Prehistory, and Origins: Part 1

Guruji: “… that’s why ramta jogi is compared to flowing water – it has no destination. Today here, tomorrow somewhere else, because he doesn’t have any obligations. A person sticks to a place only if he has some obligations.”

Q: Guruji, we were talking about Indo-European languages earlier. It appears that Sanskrit, Greek, and Latin have a lot of similarities, but there’s no such similarity between Indian languages – for example, Sanskrit and Tamil don’t have any.”

Guruji: “Yes, Sanskrit and Tamil are not similar. Tamil is more ancient. It is considered one of the most ancient languages, the original Dravidian language. I think the originator was Agastya Rishi, when we went to South India on Shiva-ji’s instructions. Sanskrit is originally considered the Aryan language, language of the gods.”

Q: “If Sanskrit is originally Aryan, then are we from outside?”

Guruji: “Here’s what I’ve analyzed: In olden time, in the glory of the king they used to say, ‘The one and only emperor from the Himalayas to the ocean. ‘ In this, ‘From Himalaya to the ocean’ includes the Indian peninsula, the complete Asia, Europe, and even Africa – African continent was attached before, it’s only separated by a canal even now. In Mahabharata also, it’s clear that the original Hastinapur was in Egypt. Pandavas were given khandawaprastha area which wasn’t developed. That was in India, Indraprastha, near Delhi. So basically the Indian peninsula was mainly inhabited by tribal people and ascetics who were highly advanced but also lived in harmony with nature.

“I think the first invasion was in the times of Lord Rama. That was also an interesting discovery. If you get a chance, refer to the Egyptian history – I read this in an article many years back: Ramases first was the king of Egypt. His father’s name was Dashrath. His wife was abducted by some Indian king, then his army general was sent to kill the Indian king and rescue his wife, and his capital was Ayudya named city situated near Haryu river which flows in the Middle East. We all know that they pronounced ‘sa’ as ‘ha’. May be Saryu became Haryu. I haven’t gotten a chance to read the Egyptian history more extensively, but take a look if you could find a reference to this.

“Another evidence is the exact route of the ‘grand escape’ of Pandavas described at the end of Mahabharata: First they went east and then crossed the red sea, etc. The red sea is in the east of Egypt only.

“I think these old civilizations were very advanced and used to live all over the place. Aryan civilization, or call it Arian civilization, because Arian is a Greek word which means Martian or influenced by Mars. I’ll give you good reference – it’s a book by Acharya Chatursen, ‘Vayam Rakshamah’. In the first half of the book, he’s extensively discussed this topic. Basically, he postulated that the old vedic kings were actually kings of the entire Earth. He also analyzed the phonetics of the roots of their names. Also, in wars, we’ve heard about the battle on Sumali grounds in Afganistan. Sumali was Ravana’s grandfather. There’s a lot of influence of Rama’s name. For example, there’s Ramallah where Yasir Arafat was captured. Even Rome appears close to Rama. Also, the Muslim month of Ramjan could have been derived from Ramajanaki. Jamshed, which is a popular Parsi name could be Yamashid. Macca Madina could be makhbhedani (the holy grounds of yajna). Africa also has many such names. For example Timbaktu is considered a distortion of taamrakunda (copper pool). There’s a place called Masnaar where king Marut did a grand yajna. They still find holy ash in the 100 miles area around. It’s somewhere in the Congo basin. It was also referred in the book of Sudarshan Singh Chakra.

“From all this it appears that once upon a time the vedic civilization had a great impact. What we call European culture of the white race only became prominent from time of Merlin the magician. Before that the British empire was nothing. The empire which king Richard the lionhearted established kept expanding with Merlin’s help. Now nobody knows the history before Greco-Roman times. If you read in Ramayana, there’s no description of upper body clothes for women. That means they used to live topless. It’s not possible to think about those times. Also the story of Troy is very similar to the story of Rama-Ravana war, if you take the Trojan horse part out. Heroes came out from Troy one at a time to fight and die, as what happened in Lanka. And the way the trojan horse was brought inside was similar to the way Vibhishan took Lakshman inside to kill Meghnad. These incidents have a ring of similarity.”

Q: “This appears inconsistent with the general claim that there wasn’t much of a human civilization 2-3 thousand years ago.”

Guruji: “That claim is wrong, as proven from the photographs that NASA released of setu-rama-baandh and clearly indicated that it’s man-made and gave a timeline of 750,000 years ago. I have also seen these photographs. If there was nothing 3000 years ago, how would the prehistoric man make that bridge 750,000 years ago which must have required a significant engineering feat? Sea-level has also increased since then, so the bridge is now underwater. Also, the timings of Treta yuga and Raam-Ravana war also matches – it happened 750,000 years ago which surprisingly matches the timeline of this bridge.

“I feel that with technological advancement, our understanding of history will also improve. For example in Peru and places of ancient Mayan-Sumerian civilizations like lake Titikaka, they’ve found many channels made of stone as if they are for energy flow but there were no wires. Few years ago people used to say that since there were no wires, these civilizations couldn’t be very advanced. Now everybody’s operating wireless! May be they were even more advanced than us and we are not able to understand them. Pyramids, for example, may have been built in Lord Rama’s times or Pandavas’ times, who knows. Otherwise why are they exactly in that particular location? What happens is that the western mind thinks according to itself; their understanding revolves around the Bible. They are not able to go beyond that. Some day if a researcher comes who would do an unbiased study of the Indian mythology and the Greek mythology and the other myths spread all over these lands, he would be able to get a better understanding of our past. All these things are nothing but evidences, recorded in one form or the other in different mythologies.

“There are some common records as well. For example, the great deluge. It’s in almost all mythologies. In Hindu mythology, Manu went on a boat after the flood. Bible say ‘Nooh’ built a boat. People started saying Noah’s ark but the original Hebrew name is Nooh. Manu and Nooh are so similar!

Q: “Guruji, what people originally inhabited India?”

Guruji: “Basically Dravidians used to rule here, who never used to invade anybody lived in harmony with nature. Their houses and cities were built in Harappa / Mohanjodaro style. They were very advanced and peaceful people. Aryans started the invasions. They must have come from the Middle East, because, as we discussed earlier, both Rama’s kingdom as well as Pandavas’ Hastinapur appear to be in Egypt. I just remembered a Tibetan book I read long time back; It described Kalki avatar to be born in a village named Sambal, and Tibetans have placed Sambal in Moscow, that Moscow is where Kalki would be born. That is a Tibetan point of view. I think when we think about our mythologies, we should take the entire Asia, Europe, and Africa into consideration. Only then we’ll be able to decode it’s secrets. ‘From the Himalayas all the way to the ocean’ has been repeated multiple times to describe the prominent kingdoms of the old.

“In a way even America was attached at some point through Alaska and Siberia. now this is from the current time frame. if we go even further back, geography says there was only one land, Gondwana. The shifting has happened later, continents started drifting away. There was only one land-mass. May be the descriptions in our Puranas was from around that time. But since Puranas refer to Himalaya, we can say they were written after Himalaya was formed. But I think there’s no reference to Himalaya in vedas. May be, I’m not sure. In Puranas there definitely is, also in Ramayana. But even in some of the old Puranas there’s no reference to Himalaya. For example, Vamana Purana has no reference to Himalaya. Neither in vedas’ richas (verses). Mountains are mentioned, Sumeru mountain is definitely referenced quite a lot. This means that some hints about the previous geography has reached us as well.”

[20110108-2] Recorded: Dec 24, 2003

The End of Vedic Times

Q: “Guruji, we see that the human condition in society degrades and then evolves over time. But it seems to develop on its own. What is the role of gods in that?”

Guruji: “Gods don’t have a role to play in that.”

Q: “Then why worship them?”

Guruji: “Who does that anymore? Vedic gods are no longer worshiped. Indra, who was the foremost deity of vedas, is mocked by even children today. His tenure is already over, and King Bali has taken over.

“It feels like the new administration is going to be permanent. King Bali is the emperor of the Netherworld, and now he’s also the ruler of Heaven. The earlier Indra only had dominion over the heaven. Second, king Bali is already immortal, and Vishnu is his gatekeeper, since after giving all the three worlds to Vishnu, King Bali earned so much merit that Vishnu had no choice! That’s why Vishnu is no longer worshiped either – he’s been replaced by Rama and Krisha.

“The change is quite evident. Vedic rituals are disappearing, Indra’s worship is over, and Krisha established Goverdhan puja after defeating Indra. Bali puja and Goverdhan puja fall on the same day; they might be one and the same. Vedic dharma has now become Hindu dharma – we are being identified as Hindus. Vedic gods have disappeared, Indra was castigated, Vishnu ran away, and new gods have emerged. Only the eternal gods [aadi-dev] have survived – Shiva and Shakti. Krishna and Rama are getting worshiped, and Goverdhan has its own place in India.

“Besides, vedic culture is almost gone; everybody wears shirts and pants which nobody had even heard about in those times. And if you read Gita, Krishna Himself had denied vedas:

Vedas are limited to the three gunas. O Arjuna, rise above them. [Gita 2.45]

Those who are engrossed in pleasures and are only committed to the Vedas which eulogize the fruits of ritualistic karmas, such thoughtless people keep making pompous and flowery remarks. [Gita 2.42]

“He established yoga and now you see the world over people are only talking about yoga. So it seems the change has already taken place.”

Q: “But Guruji, the gods were already immortal. How could they disappear?”

Guruji: “They must be leading a retired life somewhere. The main thing, they are not in power anymore, they don’t have any control. King Bali became immortal even without drinking ambrosia. How could the other gods have faced him then? Shiva-ji also never drank ambrosia, but He is Mahadeva.

“Brahma was the first vedic god. He has no temples anymore. Second was Vishnu, but he is also left with a very few temples in India – he’s been replaced by Rama and Krishna. Rudra was the main deity and He still remains. He is the only one with the power of destruction.

“After that, we have Savita, Mitra (Indra), and Varuna as the foremost gods in vedas which are nowhere to be found. So the tenure of these 5 gods is over. Only Rudra has remained. But even He is now known as Shiva. Nobody says Rudra anymore, except in case of Shiva-ji’s puja which is called Rudrabhishek.

“It’s a clear changeover. And since king Bali has dominion over the three worlds, he must have done something that all races are coming together. Foreigners, who were once considered untouchables, are being accepted everywhere, and followers of vedas, who always considered themselves superiors, are living the most dejected lives these days. Even a sweeper is better off than them. Those who are reciting “Rama Rama” or those reading Bhagvat and Gita have reached the top. All this data proves that change has taken place.

“Tantra influence has increased as well. The ten Mahavidhyas and other tantric knowledge given by Shiva are more popular than vedas these days. It means a new type of program has started already.

“Besides, all the foreign invasions in India fundamentally destroyed vedic culture only. Adi Sankaracharya denied vedas and propagated vedanta [literally “end of Veda”]. What could they do to yogis? Nothing!

Also, nobody does rituals for gods anymore. No more singing praises of Indra’s glory! In my opinion, the kind of punishments he has received no one has ever had. Like when he violated Gautam rishi’s wife, the rishi cursed him, ‘you are going crazy after vaginas, you yourself will grow 1000 vaginas!’. He’s the only one in the entire history to have 1000 vaginas! That’s how he got the name Sahastrabhaga.

Q: “and what about Kubera?”

Guruji: “He’s a friend of Shiva-ji. His Alkapuri is right next to Kailash. Also, see, Lakshmi-ji used to grant prosperity; now that department belongs to Kubera. Even in front of our Reserve Bank there’s a status of Kubera.

“Once upon a time puranas were considered secondary after vedas, but now the roles have reversed. Upanishads are still being read since they don’t have anything abour vedas, and they don’t have any reference to Indra. All things related to Indra and vedic gods have disappeared. That means, King Bali has taken over. This also means there’ll be some state of filtering and weeding out of people, and then all races will come together.

“Until know there has been constant conflict between suras and asuras. Veda-followers always thoughts themselves as superiors. King Bali has proven that vedic people are not superior by getting then beaten by once-untouchable foreigners. And see, after they beat vedic people, they are now running after our spiritual knowledge – yoga, tantra, aghora.

“Also the reasoning behind our belief that King Bali and Goverdhan are one and the same is that Krishna defeated Indra and established Goverdhan worship. Before him, no avatar opposed Indra. He was the only one, and He beat Indra not only once but three times! There’s a famous line in Gita:

To destroy evil-doers and to establish dharma, I appear time and again in every age.

He established dharma by starting Goverdhan worship and putting an end to Indra’s worship. And the end of worship for a god means the end of him, because all means of his ‘tax revenue’ are gone! Just like kings survive on taxes, gods survive on worships.”

[20100725-5]